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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |

Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
799
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 03:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
...or then there is some noob renaming stuff who hasn't even played the game and thinks it is "hard".
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
801
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Posted - 2012.01.26 04:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
No... it just means that CCP is heading back to their normal behaviour again.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
801
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Posted - 2012.01.26 05:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tarsus Zateki wrote:Is there anything people won't ***** about? Good things?
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
813
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Posted - 2012.01.26 17:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Razin wrote:CCP Lemur wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:there is complexity that revolves around decisions and trade-offs.
then there is complexity that revolves around memorizing random stuff.
One type adds to the game, the other doesn't. This fine lady hits the point home. Yes, people love the old names and we all got accustomed to them since back in the days. But I like the new system way better since I don't have to go through dozens of clicks and comparisons to find the thing I want. So no meaningful complexity at all is lost only a naming scheme that was based on randomness alone. Simplicity isn't the same as convenience. The "lady" may be right, even if 'her' statement is a bit of a strawman, but your method of achieving convenience through extreme simplification leaves a lot to be desired. Instead of giving everything the same generic name you should have tried to make the current unique names more meaningful. You've had several posts in the test forum section describing exactly how something like that could be done. Yet you decided to ignore them.
Simplifying things too much will **** of plenty of players who are at the moment for example specialized to trade or other way benefit from different meta mods. Obviously they have spent ages to learn their thing and know the module names better than most of the devs.
Me nor my alts do this kind of stuff, but I do know many who do.
In the end you're still trying to rename banana to tomato and get away with it as it was good thing. It really is not...
When I loot random stuff and gather it to containers, sorting it out is part of the "fun" (part of the game at least). Some people benefit from other people who don't have time or will to sort our their loot, but either reprocess it or sell it directly to highest buy order no matter how low it might be... That is part of the market complexity of this game. No real world items explain in their names how expensive they are either. Why should Eve do so?
This entire renaming campaign is really bad idea and it isn't even hard to see...
Get your brains together.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
813
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Posted - 2012.01.26 17:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
I am starting to see the NEW ccp here and actually it is worse than the old one.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
815
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 17:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:Its threads like these and some of the posts contained here that makes me almost 100% sure that most of the trolls in this forum are indeed CCP alts venting out frustration that they build up when having to deal with some people. I bet that most devs use only their alts to post here, because the rage is too strong for their mains.
...and what is the deal with team names like "pink zombie kittens" or similiar anyways. I almost poured this neocom pile on CCP Punkturis again because I had and impression that she was in charge of all UI related improvements. I didn't quite believe it at start because after all she did step up and do absolutely wonderfull stuff with the scaling and UI after all the problems it had on start. In many cases she took step further and made the features even better. Now we can choose font size in overview and customize uselists in chats. Entire scaling was extra feature as reply to demand of the community. Thankfully she didn't have anything to do with this neocom mess in the end.
We need clear team names in patch notes where we can see who is responsible and from what so we can give credit to correct people and give well deserved s*it to the people who didn't even try.
So... team Optimal... and team Namechangers.... why can't you step up like some others do? Is it really that hard?
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
815
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 20:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
IT IS OK IF THESE KINDS OF THINGS CAUSE ONLY 20% OF PEOPLE GET PISSED FROM WHICH ONLY 5% UNSUB!!! IT'S NOT MUCH AND IS CLEARLY BETTER THAN HAVING NO PISSED PEOPLE.
True emoragers surf with caps lock on!
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
815
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 21:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Complex = more playing time before dying to boredom Simple = less playing time before dying to boredom. Complex = more variety in loot Simple = less variety in loot Complex = takes practise to master Simple = anyone can master right away Complex = More rewarding over time Simple = More boring over time Complex = Gives opportunities to those who study and learn Simple = Takes opportunities away from those who have learned Complex = Less people doing business with Simple = More people doing business with Complex = What eve is about and why people keep playing it day after day. Simple = Boring and doesn't belong to game where everyone try to find ways to be more efficient in complex world. Epic Subscription Mass murder = Trying to change complex to simple.
This is our game - you devs are here to make it better, but it is not your call to decide what is best for us. Stop forcing s*it!
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
818
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Posted - 2012.01.26 23:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:Complex = more playing time before dying to boredom Simple = less playing time before dying to boredom. Complex = more variety in loot Simple = less variety in loot Complex = takes practise to master Simple = anyone can master right away Complex = More rewarding over time Simple = More boring over time Complex = Gives opportunities to those who study and learn Simple = Takes opportunities away from those who have learned Complex = Less people doing business with Simple = More people doing business with Complex = What eve is about and why people keep playing it day after day. Simple = Boring and doesn't belong to game where everyone try to find ways to be more efficient in complex world. Epic Subscription Mass murder = Trying to change complex to simple.
This is our game - you devs are here to make it better. It is not your call to decide what is best for us. Please stop confusing tedium for complexity. Also it should be clear at this point that there are many who like the general direction this is going. There are plenty of actual mechanics to make the game complex, and that is where the complexity should be. Simple naming does not mean a simple game.
Even there are many who would want to drive their car on other side of the road, it's not very bright idea when you think about everyone involved.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
818
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:Complex = more playing time before dying to boredom Simple = less playing time before dying to boredom. Complex = more variety in loot Simple = less variety in loot Complex = takes practise to master Simple = anyone can master right away Complex = More rewarding over time Simple = More boring over time Complex = Gives opportunities to those who study and learn Simple = Takes opportunities away from those who have learned Complex = Less people doing business with Simple = More people doing business with Complex = What eve is about and why people keep playing it day after day. Simple = Boring and doesn't belong to game where everyone try to find ways to be more efficient in complex world. Epic Subscription Mass murder = Trying to change complex to simple.
This is our game - you devs are here to make it better. It is not your call to decide what is best for us. Please stop confusing tedium for complexity. Also it should be clear at this point that there are many who like the general direction this is going. There are plenty of actual mechanics to make the game complex, and that is where the complexity should be. Simple naming does not mean a simple game. Even there are many who would want to drive their car on other side of the road, it's not very bright idea when you think about everyone involved. This argument works just as much against you as for you. To each of us it's the other one that seems to be on the wrong side of the road. I'm a fan of complex systems made from meaningful choices, but not tedious systems requiring investment of time or effort with no real return. Having to stall for a moment because I can't remember what the explosive heavy missile is called is not an asset to the game experience. I'd rather be fitting/flying/planning/playing the game in general than memorizing nondescript names with no real scheme. Tedium is boring, memorizing random things is tedious. It's not intelligent, thought provoking or beneficial. We I need less of that.
if you have problems memorizing stuff over time (which will btw happen without even trying), get some friends. That way you can ask from some experienced pilot who knows their stuff. That is called interaction in MMORPG (Massively multiplayer online role-playing game). If you don't like MMORPG style of game play, there is always home world or similar games where the learning curve is lower and interaction is usually limited to talking with yourself.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
818
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 00:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Please stop confusing tedium for complexity. Also it should be clear at this point that there are many who like the general direction this is going. There are plenty of actual mechanics to make the game complex, and that is where the complexity should be. Simple naming does not mean a simple game.
Even there are many who would want to drive their car on other side of the road, it's not very bright idea when you think about everyone involved. This argument works just as much against you as for you. To each of us it's the other one that seems to be on the wrong side of the road. I'm a fan of complex systems made from meaningful choices, but not tedious systems requiring investment of time or effort with no real return. Having to stall for a moment because I can't remember what the explosive heavy missile is called is not an asset to the game experience. I'd rather be fitting/flying/planning/playing the game in general than memorizing nondescript names with no real scheme. Tedium is boring, memorizing random things is tedious. It's not intelligent, thought provoking or beneficial. We I need less of that. if you have problems memorizing stuff over time (which will btw happen without even trying), get some friends. That way you can ask from some experienced pilot who knows their stuff. That is called interaction in MMORPG (Massively multiplayer online role-playing game). If you don't like MMORPG style of game play, there is always home world or similar games where the learning curve is lower and interaction is usually limited to talking with yourself. If I had a complaint about gameplay complexity, your comment would be valid. Memorization of launcher type = x ammo with y variations is fine, because it's meaningful. Having to go beyond that for a separate name with no overall scheme for every combination of damage and missile type does not. Now we have a very clear (Faction)[damage](T2 type)[missile type] scheme which preserves function but unifies naming. It has to do with making sense, and to me this does. It has nothing to do with "style of play." You CANNOT play this game on any meaningful level without interacting with others. And confusing naming schemes don't create MEANINGFUL interaction. If you want to be smug about your memory skills, you can do THAT on your own.
So you're saying that because there are few who have problems memorizing stuff and don't want to ask for help from someone who can, everything should be nerfed to the point where it is easy enough for you to memorize even it would mean that existing player base would need to memorize everything again, redo all their excel sheets, programs, databases and other information they have in their heads...
Like I said before... if you want to drive on other side of the road, there will be big collision.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
818
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 00:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Before continuing I would like to point out one post which I did read minute ago... Is this what you want to hear?
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
826
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 10:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just improve the god damn compare tool and leave the names be. You devs have no idea how many other fingers write trauma when you decide that it is today's brand of tomato. Making this game more simple isn't (necessary) a good thing. Making it easier and more convenient to get information to understand the complex would give much better results for everyone. Think before you act!
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
830
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 18:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
There is better ways to aid those who think that comparing items is currently too difficult and items are too difficult to search. Renaming is just easy way to get around doing anything too complex, which would actually require some coding.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
830
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 21:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:There is better ways to aid those who think that comparing items is currently too difficult and items are too difficult to search. Renaming is just easy way to get around doing anything too complex, which would actually require some coding. The less coding they have to do, the better. Code is tricky and dangerous stuff, especially in a beastie the size of Eve. Now I admit that there was a strange sense of pride in knowing the meta levels of a few classes of modules based on their name alone. But when you DON'T memorise that stuff, poking around in the info tab is quite the pain. And hardwirings are just bloody terrible, most of them offer no clue in their name as to what they do. Thank god EFT sorts them by their purpose, and not their implant slot. In another game they might have solved this issue with mouseover tooltips that summarise what each item does, but just renaming them is an easier solution.
I would:
- add shortcut button to neocom for compare tool - add some default selectable item groups to compare tool like different kind of ammo, charges and missiles for easy viewing. - add right click function "show all variations (in compare tool)" to items with multiple meta levels and variations. - add right click function "show other items of the group (in compare tool)" to (all?) items. Would show same items than in bottom level market group. For example other minmatar frigates or small projectile ammos. - add own search function and hideable item browser to compare tool. Should support also drag and drop like atm. - add filters to market to show only items related to kinetic, thermal, em or explosive (similiar than the button which u can press to "show only available").
Dumping stuff down is really bad solution. Giving easier access to study and learn the complex will be much better solution in long term. Variety in item names has history and it gives so much more lifetime to the game.
Also you shouldn't forget how much people have invested time for 3rd party spreadsheets, programs and websites, which all use the standard eve item database. If you change the name from your code, hundreds are forced to do the same. Some may get this done by updating some database from standard dump, but many will do this manually. I'm sure they feel great passion towards individuals who did the name change pretty much just because it seemed like good idea, but really wasn't and if it was, it absolutely wasn't necessary and important one. There is million more important things to do than **** people off with the least obvious ones.
Honestly this thing and the neocom, without any trolling now, has made me seriously think about future of CCP as a company, which will never quite make it, because it is too difficult for them to put the customer demands in front of their own agenda. Developers should be proud of things what they have developed to meet the demand of the software, Not about things they have developed to boost their own ego and show how good they are developing stuff they think everyone should like.
We did have pretty much talks about communications after incarna launch. There was more discussion in forums for a while, but then it vanished. The awesome model where stuff is made in total blackout and thrown to sisi (in which point it will pretty much end to tranq as is) has returned and all real discussion what takes place happens always way too late - after plenty of resources, work and tears have already been wasted for the result which makes no one happy.
You really should start writing those devblogs in a point when there is some new plan which has been approved as a "go", but before the plans are entirely locked down and can still be altered to better meet the demand of the community. You will surely get tens of good and valid reasonable comments which will open many doors to improve the original idea and reveal many of the possible flaws before they have even been coded.
Something to think about. Maybe.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
971
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 19:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bumping as is topic of the day again.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
978
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 22:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Raastul wrote:Midnight Hope wrote:The more effort you put into something the more you value it.
CCP, you keep dumbing down EVE for the sake of making it easier to learn for new players. But you forget that at the same time you also make EVE easier to drop. If I don't put any effort cause it's so easy then I don't fell like I loose anything by dropping the game.
Personally I value all the learning it goes with EVE.
Since when is a more logical naming policy = dumbing down? I really like this change. Having to go look at the attributes tab to see if its a meta whatever item is just annoying, nothing more nothing less. There isn't anything to learn about that. That is not the item names fault. That is the fault of the tools available in the game.
At the moment only places where you can easily see the meta level is hangar if you have been informed to enable the meta column to make it visible for sorting. That too is disabled by default.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
980
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 23:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:Ris Dnalor wrote:I can only guess that CCP is "simplifying" things in order to attract more folks.
The only problem is they grew every year for 6 years, until they stopped giving us stuff for FIS.
Simplifying stuff makes the game worse, not better.
Just keep doing what you did with the last patch, and you'll see the subscriber base grow.
I can see this going bad places....
life-bars instead of hull/armor/shields... that'd be simpler too....
When you mine asteroids, instead of ore going into your hull, isk drops into your wallet.... that's ****-tons simpler...
Fitting ships is too hard, so get rid of all modules and have each ship hard-coded with turrets/launchers, ecm, and tanking abilities.
If you do that, then you can name ships properly
Caldari Long Range ECM battleship I Minmatar sacrificial tackling frigate II ORE Ice Mining Vessell II - Mackinaw Nomad -- Minmatar Freighter I
so much simpler. So much better. Right?
Just change the names back, kinda like the turret icons. like ya shoulda done with the fonts *grumble*
wrong answer is wrong.
it's not going to bring in paying customers. Unless this is all to prepare for the FREE TO PLAY CROWD, and if that's the case, then bravo, you've done exactly what you need to do. So, tell me something. Without looking at the EVElopedia (and without opening the Info window), tell me why I would want a 'Noble ZET' implant over a 'Gnome KYA'. What slot do they go in? Are they for shields, armor, weapons? How much of a boost do they give to whatever it is they boost? The new naming system is a one-glance system telling me all of that, so I don't have to open each and every implant on the market just to see how much of an increase I'd give my skills, or to make sure I'm not spending three million ISK on an implant that I've already got. Saves time, saves money, saves annoyance. How about for example: - item mouse over tips if held some key down - right click menu: "show similar in compare tool" - compare tool preset: "shield implants" which shows all shield implants. Compare tool icon to neocom.
It is not item names fault that game lacks tools.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
982
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 00:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote: How about for example: - item mouse over tips if held some key down - right click menu: "show similar in compare tool" - compare tool preset: "shield implants" which shows all shield implants. Compare tool icon to neocom.
It is not item names fault that game lacks tools.
I understand your point, but you don't seem to be seeing mine. I'll give you an example from my own experience. I was working under contract several years ago to test a system that was designed to make a computer easier to use for someone with (limited mobility/visual impairment/hearing impairment). Basically, you could make the screen bigger, you could have the computer verbalize what's on the screen, and so forth. One of the options that was included in the software package we recieved was to enable a 'visual dynamic keyboard'. Care to tell me what that might be? It's 'visual', so...it looks like a keyboard. It's 'dynamic', so...I guess it changes over time, or something....and it's a keyboard. Instead of calling it something simple and logical, like 'on-screen keyboard' (which is exactly what it was), all of our reference material used a much more confusing and obscure term. It sounded jargon-ish and overly 'clinical', scaring away the people that may actually need it. It's the same with the current implant names. Hell, I can quote nearly verbatim from movies and books that I haven't seen in six years, but I'll be darned if I can tell you what a Squire implant will do, or a Gnome KYA, or a Noble ZET without looking it up in the Info screen. I really mean this with the greatest of respect (I seriously do), but your proposed solution adds three steps (hold the button down, click the 'compare' tool, select a preset from a menu) when only one (change the names to make them less obscure) is needed to solve the problem, and takes one-third the time to install.
Yea... to be honest implants are the ones which I worry least about and if something has to be changed, there could be justification for those for the reasons you and others have already mentioned.
However I would still at least try to find additional good solutions before having to go there. Just throwing random raw ideas here but market group window could have _labelled_ sections for different kinds of implants and all important stats should be visible directly in description. Just like meta items could be sorted and labelled with meta level there.
Solutions like this won't help with separate items, but their group name could and should reveal primary use.
After basic stuff like this has been done it is time to think what info is actually crucial in name and is there need to change it. With implants - most likely some word(s) should be added to hint towards general use. However this should not be step 1.
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